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 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:03 am |
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Viguro--sometimes we anthropomorphise cos we really don't have a vocabulary to speak about the divine. But 'that which deserves to be called G-d' gets cumbersome sometimes.
Thanks, Rawb, but I think we're on different buses. And probably reading different bibles.
Cheers -
CK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:33 am |
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How so? Regarding the hell issue?
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:18 am |
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I never was able to find a hell in the bible, Rawb. Only the ones we create for ourselves.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:24 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by ComplexKid I never was able to find a hell in the bible, Rawb. Only the ones we create for ourselves.
Well, I remember people telling me I wasn't supposed to say the word "hell" back when I used to go to church, my how confused I was... We all know the bible says it at least once =P.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:28 am |
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Many cultures before Christianity had a place for the dead. It was usually called the underworld, Caves were often sacred places that symbolized the entrance to the underworld. sources of water were also seen as entrances to the underworld, thus often times Celtic and Roman people would make natural springs sacred places just for this reason, they would leave offerings and prayers of healing and other needs at these places. We are left with the remains of these practices with the well known wishing well, where one leaves a monetary gift in return for answered wishes. How often have you or your children thrown a penny or quarter into a fountain? This too can be seen as the remains of this practice.
The underworld was a place that all the dead went to and it was not seen in the Christian sense as a place of punishment. The underworld was often a place the dead went to rest and await rebirth, reincarnation.
The Norse underworld was ruled by Hela and she ruled Hel. Sometimes the beings/gods who rules these places also had the names of the places. Hades ruled Hades, Hela ruled Hel, etc.
How about this idea, Since there are so many ideas in the world about where we go when we die what if we go where we expect to go when we die, Heaven, Hell, Nirvana, or what ever your chosen place of rest would be.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:40 am |
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Only in bad translations.
No heaven. No hell. Just now. It's all you ever get.
Cheers.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:05 am |
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To my knowledge, the closest the 'Old Testament' gets to hell is the Valley of Gehinnom which was the garbage dump for the old city of Jerusalem.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:10 am |
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http://www.bagism.com/lyrics/imagin...cs.html#Imagine
Lyrics: Imagine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Imagine" was John Lennon's second major release apart from the Beatles. Released on Sept. 9, 1971 (US) and Oct. 8, 1971 (UK), it has remained John's most commercially successful album. It was recorded primarily in John's home studio which turned out to be the last time he would ever record in England. Track Listing
Imagine
Crippled Inside
Jealous Guy
It's So Hard
I Don't Want To Be A Soldier
Give Me Some Truth
Oh My Love
How Do You Sleep?
How?
Oh Yoko!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine
John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Produced by Sam Choukri
Frequently Asked Questions
Last updated on Nov 6, 1998
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:34 am |
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CK, what do you mean no Heaven, no hell? My understanding is that hell means that grave, no people burning in there. According to my concordance, there are 54 references to hell in the Bible. To be honest, I will have to look at them. But from previous studies I have done, they are not there to "scare" people into worshipping or following God at all. Just the same as "eternal fire" doesn't mean what we think it does. Heaven is referred to in the Bible 59 times. (unless I miscounted) not including the words 'heavenly' or 'heavens'.
Tommy, you are right about the garbage dump thing. I heard of that too. All of the human excrement would go there as well adding a deeper feeling of how bad it must have stank there too.
Separate note:
I don't know where people get the conception of the devil with a pitchfork. What is the pitch fork for anyway? To make sure we are turned over at certain intervals and evenly cooked while roasting in hell ?(according to those who would believe that!)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:33 am |
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Rawb - that's what I meant. 'Hell' is either a bad translation of 'sheol' (the grave), or a misundertanding of the Valley of Ben Hinnom (ossuary for the bones of sacrificed children). Well, there's a Hel/Lucifer/Morning star that refers to a Canaanite (think it was them) sun god and by metaphor Nebuchadnezzar in Tanakh and to Jesus in the Greek Testament, but that's only two episodes.
A satan isn't an independant being. Hint: there isn't one in Gan Eden, the first use of any variation of the word doesn't show up until Numbers 22 in conjunction with Bilaam and his ass, that's how we get a clue what the word means, and as for the devil...some Christians made him up to scare people, mostly out of earlier myths. I'm pretty sure he didn't get into the picture in the middle ages.
There's no war in heaven. At least not that kind, much as I enjoy reading about friend Stuie's escapades in another thread here.
There is only NOW.
Cheers -
CK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:27 pm |
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I will never condemn anyone for their own opinion. Especially hell, seeing that I don't believe in what a lot of Christians say about hell anyway. A person doesn't burn in hell like what we think. An unending fire that is never extinguished. It is an all consuming fire. Didn't the Bible say that Sodom and Gomorrah was punished with eternal fire? (if you have read that Bible?)
Let's look; Jude verse 7: " Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
From this quote we see that eternal fire dosn't mean what we think it means. Is Sodom and Gommorha still burning today? No. But nothing has ever been rebuilt where they once stood. And someone even looked at the sulphur content at their sites. So the fact that people think that they wil burn in hell and suffer forever and ever is absurd. Totally against what God stands for and against Bible teaching. In Revelation it talks about a lake of fire that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into, but it doesn't talk about them burning there for the rest of time as we think. I hope that gives some people some hope. forever can also mean until we are extinguished. There will be the fire at the end of the earth's history that will eradicate all sin once and for all. Some people who are not saved will only burn as long as their deeds dictate. But who will burn the longest ? Satan.
And it doesn't mean that the people who live on in the kingdom of God and out of boredom one day someone will say; "hey, remember all those bad, bad people? let's go see how many of them are still burning!" and go off with a bunch of friends down to the Lake 'ol Fire with their beach towels and take in the tourist attraction. Maybe skip a few stones at Satan while they're at it. Bring a picnic lunch, and roast hotdogs at the lake shore. Lay bets on who will burn up faster, Hitler or George W.Bush (that's an assumption, I'm sorry )
Does this sound like it would be God's plan for things? I think not. I think that it will be painful for Him to watch it, as well as anyone who is saved. There will be people that know some of the lost out in the lake of fire, but they will mostly be burned up pretty fast. It's not like a torture thing to get revenge. But God's laws require sin to be quelled fromo existence. That is how it must be.
If you ask God for direction HE will lead you where you need to go. That is ultimately who we answer to.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:03 am |
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CK, the book Job is generally considered to be the oldest of the canonized books and though I've never read it in Aramaic or Hebrew, the English translations all refer to Satan as the individual who vied with YHVH over Job's loyalty.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:43 am |
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Heh heh, Satan with a pitch fork. I always though Satan would probably just be a little lizard so the heat of Hell wouldn't bother him so much (less surface area) but that's also assuming Hell is how it's commonly pictured. You ever wondered what Satan or God says to themselves when something stupid happens? =D
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:11 am |
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Tommy, as you may recall, Satan had to get permission and could only go as far as Hashem said--no free agency. And granted, it was the Satan in that particular book, but there are lots of little satans running around too. Ha-satawn first shows up in Numbers 22, which is the first time we see it, even though the manuscript of Job is older, but the meanings are not that far apart.
None possessed of infinite power or out-of-tune with Hashem's will.
If you really wanna fly with this one you have to get beyond good and evil, though not the way Nietschze meant that--well, maybe when he was nuts, but that's another digression.
Point is, there aren't two different gods on different sides out there fighting with each other over people's souls.
My perception after a few decades of Torah and other sacred manuscript study. Yours may be different, and if it works for you that's great. For me, the Kingdom is NOW. And it's all up to us--nobody gets to die for anyone else's sins.
Tikkun, Rawb, tikkun. Yeah, you'll have to go look that up, but it's not a bad thing. Just like teshuvah--which we normally translate as repentance, but not really. That'd take a couple paragraphs to explain too.
Uhh...those were words used in the closest-to-original manuscripts we've got, btw. I tend to stay away from translations cos every five minutes I'm shaking my head with a 'how the hell did they come up with that??
Cheers -
CK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:09 pm |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Viguro Heh heh, Satan with a pitch fork. I always though Satan would probably just be a little lizard so the heat of Hell wouldn't bother him so much (less surface area) but that's also assuming Hell is how it's commonly pictured. You ever wondered what Satan or God says to themselves when something stupid happens? =D Have you ever seen the movie " Witches of Eastwick"? I saw that when I was a kid, long before I started my walk with God. The part where Jack Nicholson is in the church was the best of the whole movie. Absolutely hilarious!!
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