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 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:14 am |
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Was that truly educated speech for me? I sure hope not because that would far further from the hoop to the basket.
If you don't know...let me inform you. I dont take sides. I wouldn't care if I was president of the US. This whole scene is crazy. We are falling more than we are walking and frankly I don't think it takes a truly educated, brainwashed person to figure that one out. Some things are just common sense.
I will be fair... I understand your position. But your position represents one side of a view...and one side of view doesn't make it right. You have to come to a common ground and that common grounds has nothing to with lefts, rights, ups or downs...
but hey...im only 26 what do i know.
Quote: Originally Posted by Betamanmn Truly educated people understand the War in Iraq is part of the global war on terrorism. It is only through free, democratic countries throughout the world that Islamic, fascist terrorism will be defeated. Until the left understands this, the left continues to be on the side of these terrorists, even if it is due to their own naive, stupidity. Terrorists understand the true way to defeat a free, democratic society is have the people within that society defeat themselves. This is why we lost Vietnam and this is what the North Vietnamese goal was as they knew they could not defeat us militarily. We will not let this happen in Iraq as every day we move toward a truly free democratic Iraq. It is the Iraqi people who will defeat these terrorists in their midsts. We are just guiding them along the way.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:23 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Betamanmn I firmly believe people who may think they love their country and respects the troops but speak out as above are misguided and dangerous in their naivety. They have no clue how they hurt the troops and are responsible for invigorating terrorists, giving terrorists hope, leading to more death of our troops. The only way the terrorists can defeat us is by having our own people defeat us from within. They are traitors as a traitor gives aid and assistance to the enemy and this is what they are doing. These people let their blind hate for Bush damage this country. This is truly sad. The sad thing is they are naive traitors. They may look at this country with love but through their naive actions are creating more harm and damage, causing more death and destruction through their wish to avoid it. Naivety is no excuse for the traitorous actions of those who give aid and comfort to our enemies.
The Neocons' Childish Theory
by Charley Reese
As of this writing, more than 1,800 young Americans have died in Iraq. The combined cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is $340 billion. This is what happens when we elect people who refuse to accept the limits set by the United States Constitution.
The Constitution gave us a government to govern America, not the world. It is none of our business what forms of government other countries have, just as it is none of our business whether the women in a foreign country wear burkhas or bikinis.
Surely you realize by now that either the Bush administration knew Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction or, even scarier, was dumb enough to believe it did have them. On Sept. 11, 2001, we had one enemy a terrorist organization that calls itself al-Qaeda. Instead of limiting our response to taking out that organization, President George Bush declared war on the world.
He bought the childishly unrealistic theory, concocted by mostly pro-Israeli neoconservatives, that we could take out Saddam Hussein and install a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq, and that this fine example would spread liberal democracy to the entire Middle East. This was going to be cheap and easy, they said. It was not only a childish and simplistic theory, it was stupid. It's what you would expect from a bunch of mostly academics who have never heard the sound of gunfire and who don't read or speak Arabic, much less have ever spent any time in the area.
In the Iraq War we were everybody's sucker. That crook Ahmad Chalabi played us for a sucker, and the Israelis played us for a sucker. They both got what they wanted the destruction of Saddam Hussein's government without spending a dollar of their money or a drop of their blood. Instead of Iraqi oil paying for the war, as the neocons had promised, we are paying $61 a barrel for oil. After two years of American occupation, the Iraqi people still don't have (1) security, (2) dependable power, (3) cheap and plentiful gasoline, (4) clean water, (5) a decent sewer system or (6) a viable economy.
The deluded imperialists in Washington can blame that on the insurgency, but I assure you, the Iraqi people blame us.
There is now more terror, not less; the Middle East is less stable, not more stable; and we are not going to end up with a democracy in Iraq. We're going to end up instead with a theocracy aligned with Iran, a civil war or another authoritarian government or the entire series of bad outcomes, one after another. And in the meantime, our own liberty is being diminished.
What we routinely misname a democracy (our form of government is a republic, not a democracy) evolved through the centuries from our mother country, the United Kingdom. It has taken hold nowhere else on the globe except in the English-speaking countries, not even on Continental Europe. It is uniquely English based on English common law.
One would have to be a moron or entirely ignorant of the Muslim world to expect that you could impose that system on Iraq at the point of a gun. There is such a striking absence of common sense in Washington that I sometimes think we ought to outsource the State Department to the Teamsters Union, and intelligence work to the Mafia. It would help if we moved the national capital to Fargo, N.D., where subzero temperatures might encourage Congress to do its work on time.
Last week, a bunch of insurgents probably none of whom had any formal training killed 14 of the "best-trained, best-equipped soldiers in the world" with one homemade bomb. The insurgents know one thing the hotshots in Washington overlooked: The way to fight a high-tech army is with low-tech tactics and weapons.
As long as we keep troops in Iraq, some of them will die, because in that part of the world, when you kill a man, you automatically incur the mortal enmity of his family. In other words, we are manufacturing new insurgents every time we kill one. Like the Viet Cong, the insurgents know they can't beat us on the battlefield, but they know that in the long run, they will be there and we won't.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:01 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by riocpa
...So why, oh why, do I watch Fox News every single day? Because it's good to know the enemy...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:18 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by poetry1mind Some things are just common sense.
I will be fair... I understand your position. But your position represents one side of a view...and one side of view doesn't make it right. You have to come to a common ground and that common grounds has nothing to with lefts, rights, ups or downs...
but hey...im only 26 what do i know.
When right-wing nuts like this start to make any sense at all, it's time for a vacation...a long one. Take care that someone isn't secretly dosing you with GOP mind control Kool-Aid. Being 26 is an advantage. There's less time to have had your brain permanently and irrevocably washed like some of the pathetic Monkeys on this board. If that happens, suicide is the only logical recourse.
"This Is Your Brain On GOP Mind Control Kool-Aid. Any Questions?"
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:52 am |
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Gee (I gota get some esteem )
thanks
I will now look at my age as an advantage.
See it took someone much wiser to tell me.
[QUOTE=dchristie]When right-wing nuts like this start to make any sense at all, it's time for a vacation...a long one. Take care that someone isn't secretly dosing you with GOP mind control Kool-Aid. Being 26 is an advantage. There's less time to have had your brain permanently and irrevocably washed like some of the pathetic Monkeys on this board. If that happens, suicide is the only logical recourse.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:09 am |
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Well Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch so I wouldn't expect any less. All his media is full of complete lies cos he's so powerful and has a lot of affiliations with the Government (UK and US).
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:56 am |
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Maisie..... It is so easy for you left lefties to make mindless accusations without any proof. Next time leave some proof that Murdoch's media is filled with lies and has connections with the government politicians.
your doctor
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:11 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie This pathetic Monkey loon has long since disqualified himself as being worthy of a debate on these or, frankly, any other issues. Of course, there were those who still thought Hitler was going to save Germany even as the Russian infantry closed in on his bunker. So, this is not an un-common phenomena.
Most fascist regimes throughout history have had their share of totally brainwashed, comatose, obeisant cattle and The Bush Gang is no different. For a really die hard, glassy-eyed Monkey zombie like this (and latest polls show they may still comprise as much as 40% of the public who simply refuse to wake up and smell the coffee ) Bush is, and will always be, unassailable regardless the degree of incompetence, venality and ignominy of the crimes and screw-ups he and his gang commit.
The only contribution this Monkey has ever made here is to provide some light, albeit involuntary, comic relief. He does provide some humorous insight into just how effective the GOP's mind control Kool Aid has been with some of The Bush Crime Gang's fawning, feeble minded useful idiots in our culture. But that's all. Sad
.but still amusing.
The great thing about this country is that idiots like dchristie can spout off their hateful rhetoric and not get hanged or shot. Luckily a great patriot like George Bush does not follow the whims of deranged leftists like Dchristie, but follows his heart and common sense. It is fortunate though most Americans are sane enough to realize the danger and lunacy of the left that they re-elected George Bush knowing that Bush brings honesty and true leadership to the White House. This is so refreshing after 8 years of a failed Clinton administration.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:46 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie The Neocons' Childish Theory
by Charley Reese
As of this writing, more than 1,800 young Americans have died in Iraq. The combined cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is $340 billion. This is what happens when we elect people who refuse to accept the limits set by the United States Constitution.
The Constitution gave us a government to govern America, not the world. It is none of our business what forms of government other countries have, just as it is none of our business whether the women in a foreign country wear burkhas or bikinis.
Surely you realize by now that either the Bush administration knew Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction or, even scarier, was dumb enough to believe it did have them. On Sept. 11, 2001, we had one enemy a terrorist organization that calls itself al-Qaeda. Instead of limiting our response to taking out that organization, President George Bush declared war on the world.
He bought the childishly unrealistic theory, concocted by mostly pro-Israeli neoconservatives, that we could take out Saddam Hussein and install a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq, and that this fine example would spread liberal democracy to the entire Middle East. This was going to be cheap and easy, they said. It was not only a childish and simplistic theory, it was stupid. It's what you would expect from a bunch of mostly academics who have never heard the sound of gunfire and who don't read or speak Arabic, much less have ever spent any time in the area.
In the Iraq War we were everybody's sucker. That crook Ahmad Chalabi played us for a sucker, and the Israelis played us for a sucker. They both got what they wanted the destruction of Saddam Hussein's government without spending a dollar of their money or a drop of their blood. Instead of Iraqi oil paying for the war, as the neocons had promised, we are paying $61 a barrel for oil. After two years of American occupation, the Iraqi people still don't have (1) security, (2) dependable power, (3) cheap and plentiful gasoline, (4) clean water, (5) a decent sewer system or (6) a viable economy.
The deluded imperialists in Washington can blame that on the insurgency, but I assure you, the Iraqi people blame us.
There is now more terror, not less; the Middle East is less stable, not more stable; and we are not going to end up with a democracy in Iraq. We're going to end up instead with a theocracy aligned with Iran, a civil war or another authoritarian government or the entire series of bad outcomes, one after another. And in the meantime, our own liberty is being diminished.
What we routinely misname a democracy (our form of government is a republic, not a democracy) evolved through the centuries from our mother country, the United Kingdom. It has taken hold nowhere else on the globe except in the English-speaking countries, not even on Continental Europe. It is uniquely English based on English common law.
One would have to be a moron or entirely ignorant of the Muslim world to expect that you could impose that system on Iraq at the point of a gun. There is such a striking absence of common sense in Washington that I sometimes think we ought to outsource the State Department to the Teamsters Union, and intelligence work to the Mafia. It would help if we moved the national capital to Fargo, N.D., where subzero temperatures might encourage Congress to do its work on time.
Last week, a bunch of insurgents probably none of whom had any formal training killed 14 of the "best-trained, best-equipped soldiers in the world" with one homemade bomb. The insurgents know one thing the hotshots in Washington overlooked: The way to fight a high-tech army is with low-tech tactics and weapons.
As long as we keep troops in Iraq, some of them will die, because in that part of the world, when you kill a man, you automatically incur the mortal enmity of his family. In other words, we are manufacturing new insurgents every time we kill one. Like the Viet Cong, the insurgents know they can't beat us on the battlefield, but they know that in the long run, they will be there and we won't.
It is sad people like this have no understanding of history. Compared to those lost in WWII those lost in Iraq is minuscule. Compared to those lost in World War I those lost in Iraq is minuscule. Compared to those lost in the Civil War Iraq is miniscule. Do I make light of death? No of course not as any life lost is a shame but compared to history Iraq has been a success in limiting the numbers killed working toward a goal that will truly make a positive impact on this world and leave all countries safer and people freer. Leaving Vietnam was criminal as the only reason we "lost" was we gave up. We will not abandon the Iraqis. Those fighting against us in Iraq are terrorists who do not have the will of the Iraqi people behind them. These terrorists are killing Iraqis who are trying to build their nation and create a free country. Those so-called Islamic holy warriors are killing fellow Muslims to prevent the development of a free Iraq. There is no leader of this supposed insurgency to take the reigns of power so they cannot win, as there is no one to rally around. Zarkawi is a terrorist, not even an Iraqi, and is the closest thing to a leader they have. Iraqis put their life on the line every day signing up for military and police service. They are undeterred by these terrorists. America will leave Iraq when Iraqis are strong enough to take back their country. They are well on the way. Thanks to President George Bush he has done the world a favor by finally making change in the Middle East that will spread the seeds of democracy making this world a safer place. Some countries in this world are like spoiled children, but leaders like Bush and Blair and the rest in the coalition of the willing understand it is only through great sacrifice that great positive change can take place. The deluded left try to shift focus on what this war is really about but the America people are to wise to fall for their misguided attempts at lies and understand the wisdom of Bush and his policies.
For those of you who don't belive Saddams link to terrorism with all of these references to Germany and Hamburg, the 9/11 Commission oddly failed to include a published report from March 2001 in a Parisian Arabic newspaper, Al-Watan Al-Arabi, about the arrest of two suspected Iraqi spies -- based on a tip from the CIA:
Quote: Iraqi Spies Reportedly Arrested in Germany 16 March 2001
Al-Watan al-Arabi (Paris) reports that two Iraqis were arrested in Germany, charged with spying for Baghdad. The arrests came in the wake of reports that Iraq was reorganizing the external branches of its intelligence service and that it had drawn up a plan to strike at US interests around the world through a network of alliances with extremist fundamentalist parties.
Again, more proof of how right Bush was to take out saddam.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:07 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie WASHINGTON President Bush has fallen to a new low in a new A-P-Ipsos poll on his handing of Iraq.
The poll taken Monday through Wednesday indicates that just 38 percent of Americans approve of Bush's handling of the war and its aftermath.
A year ago, the public was evenly divided on Iraq, and Bush's stance on the war and terrorism helped him to election victory.
Bush has lost support most dramatically among younger women, especially those who live in the suburbs, and among men with a high school education or less.
The number of Americans who trust the president has also fallen, from 53 to 48 percent, according to a poll conducted this week.
About 55 percent disapprove of the job he's doing overall.
Copyright 2005 Associated Press.
Poll Results 8/07/2005
Is the Iraq war vital to the security of the United States?
Yes
875/34%
No
1126/66%
Votes: 2001
Will Iraqi troops be able to take over and win the Iraq war?
Yes
239/36%
No
430/64%
Votes: 669
Has the Iraq war made the world a safer or more dangerous place?
Safer
429/34%
More dangerous
816/66%
No effect
0/0%
Votes: 1245
Will Iraq be a beacon of democracy in the Arab world?
Yes
61/28%
No
159/72%
Votes: 220
Is the US government using scare tactics to convince Americans to support war with Iraq?
Yes
551/64%
No
428/22%
Not sure
50/5%
Votes: 1029
Iraq: Are weapons of mass destruction the pretext while oil is the real prize?
Yes
479/57%
No
312/37%
Not sure
49/6%
Votes: 840
Luckily the president does not govern by polls but by common sense and what is right. The American people voted and re-elected George Bush by a majority, more then what Clinton ever got. Of course, with the liberal media against Bush and trying to brainwash the American people what do you expect by these poll numbers? What is a fact though is that when the constitution is developed in Iraq and the next round of elections take place, as the terrorists are proven they can not win the polls will sway back to support. The thing about polls is they are determined by the wording and how the questions are asked. America is a fast food culture conditioned by convenience and Hollywood. We want our problems solved quickly and our attention spans are short. Unfortunately, in the real world real, some problems take time, determination and sacrifice. George Bush understands this. If I had a choice between a president who responded to polls and a president who did what is right (a true leader) I would take the leader any day. Leadership is about leading, not following polls. SO, I stand by my statement. The American people are behind Bush as they elected him to be President by a majority and if you have a problem with this go whine in the corner as there is nothing you can do about it until 2008.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:55 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Maisie Well Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch so I wouldn't expect any less. All his media is full of complete lies cos he's so powerful and has a lot of affiliations with the Government (UK and US).
An excellent expose' of Murdoch's role in the fascist right-wing noise machine is presented in the documentary film "Outfoxed, Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism" by Robert Greenwald.
"This documentary also reveals the secrets of Former Fox news producers, reporters, bookers and writers who expose what it's like to work for Fox News. These former Fox employees talk about how they were forced to push a "right-wing" point of view or risk their jobs. Some have even chosen to remain anonymous in order to protect their current livelihoods. As one employee said "There's no sense of integrity as far as having a line that can't be crossed."
Info on it found here: http://www.iwantmedia.com/people/people39.html
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:08 am |
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White House wants to lower expectations about model democracy, US military victory in Iraq.
By Tom Regan
Christian Science Monitor 08/15/2005
The Bush administration is "significantly" lowering expectations about what it can achieve in Iraq, finally admitting that its prewar plans were "unrealistic," the Washington Post reported on Sunday.
The United States no longer expects to see a model new democracy, a self-supporting oil industry, or a society in which the majority of people are free from serious security or economic challenges, US officials say.
Meanwhile on Friday, in an analysis for the Post, Peter Baker wrote that "Administration officials have given up all hope of militarily defeating the insurgents with US forces, instead aiming only to train and equip enough Iraqi security forces to take over the fight themselves."
While the Post article notes that the White House still feels it has accomplished a great deal in Iraq, Senator Joseph Biden (D) of Delaware, Sunday accused the Bush administration of trying to lower expectations as part of an exit strategy. "They have squandered about every opportunity to get it right," Sen. Biden told NBC's "Meet the Press".
Senator John McCain (R) of Arizona also told NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday that any talk of a significant US troop withdrawal from Iraq is premature.
"The day that I can land at the airport in Baghdad and ride in an unarmed car down the highway to the Green Zone is the day that I'll start considering withdrawals from Iraq," said McCain, referring to the heavily fortified area where US and Iraqi government headquarters are located.
"We not only don't need to withdraw, we need more troops there," he said on Fox News Sunday.
But in an interview late Sunday on CNN, Senator Richard Lugar (R) of Indiana, the head of the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee, said that even while there are not enough US troops in Iraq to keep insurgents out, it was extremely unlikely more soldiers would be sent there. "We have to train the Iraqis faster and harder," said Sen. Lugar.
John Farmer, the national political correspondent of the Newark Star-Ledger, writes in an opinion piece on Monday that the White House's decision to lower expectations in Iraq and float talk of troops withdrawal has more to do with the 2006 midterm elections in the US than the reality of the situation on the ground in Iraq.
A clear GOP defeat next year would constitute a repudiation of Bush's Iraq policy. Congressional Republicans, especially in the House, have the jitters. They've seen the polls and fear they'll get caught in any backlash against the war. Cindy Sheehan, the Gold Star mother camping outside the ranch to protest the war while Bush hides within, is their worst nightmare.
The word in Washington is that the same House Republicans who only yesterday were the war's chief cheerleaders are now said to be pressuring Bush to throw them a rope something that can pass for an exit strategy or, failing that, a commitment to bring at least some of the boys home before the 2006 elections.
Kevin Hassett, director of economic policy studies at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, writes in an opinion piece for Bloomberg News that public pessimism about Iraq is having another effect depressing optimism obout the positive news about the US economy.
The explanation I favor is that the negative news about Iraq and the failure to stop the attacks in London have overwhelmed the good economic news. It's easy to assert that, but the fact is the data resoundingly support this view, poll data concerning attitudes toward President Bush's foreign policy and his handling of the economy. There is clearly a striking positive (and statistically quite significant) relationship between the two. Even the blips move together.
While correlation is not causality, the strong common down trend during a period of economic expansion convincingly supports the view that the turmoil in Iraq is affecting answers to economic questions. It's hard to imagine the effect going the other way.
Knight Ridder reports on the changing public attitudes towards the war in Iraq and how that is being handled by the Bush administration.
Meanwhile, CNN reports that Henry Kissinger, an "architect of the US war in Vietnam more than 30 years ago," says that he has an "uneasy feeling" that some of the same factors that undermined support for that war are beginning to surface in relation to the war in Iraq. Kissinger said the US should remove any troops that are not nececessary for stabilizing Iraq, but that "we cannot begin with an exit without having first defined what the objective is."
"If a radical government emerges in Baghdad or if any part of Iraq becomes what Afghanistan used to be, a training ground for terrorists, then this will be a catastrophe for the Islamic world and for Europe, much as they may reluctant as they may be to admit it and eventually for us."
Finally, The Los Angeles Times reports on another issue that confronting the Bush administration the establishment of permanent US bases in Iraq, requiring as many as 50,000 US troops for not just years, but perhaps decades. And experts say it's likely that while the establishment of US bases in Iraq will stoke the fires of the insurgency, it's "probably too much to hope that it will burn out without them."
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:26 am |
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Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie
The Bush administration is "significantly" lowering expectations about what it can achieve in Iraq, finally admitting that its prewar plans were "unrealistic," the Washington Post reported on Sunday. By the look of the newest polls I would say the American public has "significantly" lowered it's expectations about what the Bush administration can achieve, period! Their pre-election hopes were "unrealistic" also.
Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie "Administration officials have given up all hope of militarily defeating the insurgents with US forces, instead aiming only to train and equip enough Iraqi security forces to take over the fight themselves." What was that about "leadership" and "staying the course"? Beta, help me out here.
Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie While the Post article notes that the White House still feels it has accomplished a great deal in Iraq, Senator Joseph Biden (D) of Delaware, Sunday accused the Bush administration of trying to lower expectations as part of an exit strategy. "They have squandered about every opportunity to get it right," Sen. Biden told NBC's "Meet the Press". What was that you said, Beta..."If I had a choice between a president who responded to polls and a president who did what is right (a true leader) I would take the leader any day."
Looks like you get neither.
Quote: Originally Posted by dchristie The word in Washington is that the same House Republicans who only yesterday were the war's chief cheerleaders are now said to be pressuring Bush to throw them a rope οΏ½ something that can pass for an exit strategy or, failing that, a commitment to bring at least some of the boys home before the 2006 elections. So, these Republi****z don't give a crap about the troops.... oh, wait,...an election is coming. Now they need to bring these "boys" home.
Quote:
Finally, The Los Angeles Times reports on another issue that confronting the Bush administration οΏ½ the establishment of permanent US bases in Iraq, requiring as many as 50,000 US troops for not just years, but perhaps decades. And experts say it's likely that while the establishment of US bases in Iraq will stoke the fires of the insurgency, it's "probably too much to hope that it will burn out without them." Maybe we can put up some Jewish settlements around the bases too. I'm sure the Iraqis wouldn't mind, now that they have a democracy and all.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:12 am |
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[QUOTE=msg6367]Why do Bush supporters get so defensive when he is criticized? It's simple. They thought they were going to have a man in the White House who would lead this country in the direction of peace and prosperity, not beat the war drum and invade countries that did no harm to us. It hurts their fragile egos when "their guy" has the very low polling numbers that he does and people in his inner circle are involved in scandals or saying and doing stupid things. They are suppose to be the elite, the cream of the crop, and when the cards don't go their way they get upset. Just think, this man Mr.Bush is on his way to becoming one of the worst presidents in the history of the U.S., as a democrat, I don't have to sell this idea to anyone, this kind of stuff sells itself. "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" I still can't get over that stunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:25 am |
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FOX NEWS and PRESIDENT BUSH may not always be right, but they are never wrong.
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